Zhiheng Lawyer Dialogue with Big Fish Chat Room - "Under the Industry Volume, How Young Lawyers Choose Law Firm Platforms to Achieve Faster Growth" Interview Record
For young lawyers, it is crucial to choose a law firm that is conducive to their own development. What kind of law firm is more conducive to the development of lawyers? In the current competitive environment of the legal industry, how can young lawyers combine their career plans with industry trends, choose a good platform, and take a good career development path?
Lan Caiming, Director of the Management Committee of Zhiheng (Qianhai) Law Firm and member of Zhiheng National Strategy and Development Committee, was invited to the Big Fish Chat Room to discuss the relationship between lawyers and law firms, the standards of law firms suitable for the development of lawyers, and how young lawyers should choose a practice platform. The following is a transcript of the conversation.
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Source | 2024.06.06 Big Fish Chat Room Big Fish Talk Lan Caiming Lawyer Live Record
Big Fish: Thank you very much Director Lan for accepting the invitation. First of all, please briefly introduce yourself.
Lan Caiming: After graduating in 1988, I first practiced law in Ningbo for 9 years. During this period, I went to Shenzhen on business to handle cases, and I felt that this is a vibrant city. So, in 1997, I came to Shenzhen and worked at Xingchen Law Firm for 22 years until I changed offices in 2019.
Later, I joined Zhiheng Qianhai Law Firm.
After 36 years of practice, I went from a business lawyer to a management lawyer, and then to a business lawyer at
. I have a deep understanding of how lawyers choose platforms to help them grow and develop.
Big Fish: According to the "Ranking of China's 100 Largest Law Firms (2024.05) " released by Xinze, Zhiheng Qianhai Law Firm has developed significantly faster than the industry average in the past six months. I think it must be something that has been done right. Mr. Lan himself has experienced changes from traditional firms to partnerships to emerging law firms; in the process, he has done both business and management.
Lawyer Lan is very vocal about the topic we want to discuss today.
Lawyers and law firms achieve mutual success
Big Fish: Based on your many years of experience and experience, what do you think is the relationship between lawyers and law firms?
Lan Caiming: First of all, in China, lawyers must obtain a practice license on the platform of a law firm before they can practice. This is different from the rules that lawyers in Anglo-American law countries can practice independently. Therefore, lawyers in China actually need two licenses to practice. One is the institutional practice license of the law firm, and the other is the lawyer's own practice license.
Therefore, I believe that lawyers and law firms achieve each other, just like the relationship between skin and hair, "if the skin does not exist, the hair will be attached"; if the hair is not bright, the value of the skin will also be affected.
At the same time, the legal industry is a large ecosystem, which requires not only large-scale offices and brand offices, but also small offices of three or five people, such as the so-called "neighborhood offices". Neighbors need some familiar, down-to-earth, convenient and even low-cost lawyers to provide them with legal services. Different types of law firms serve different groups and needs, which are in line with the ecological laws of the industry and have their own value.
Therefore, when choosing a law firm, lawyers should choose a law firm that is like-minded, suitable for their own development, and able to achieve a common vision and dream in terms of law firm genes and management systems, so as to achieve a good career for each other.
02 A platform suitable for the development of lawyers must have "natural time", "geographical location", "people"
Big Fish: So, what are the core characteristics of a platform suitable for the development of lawyers?
Lan Caiming: I believe that a good law firm has the following six criteria:
The first is the genes. The genes of a law firm are expressed in two aspects: one is the law firm system, and the other is the law firm culture. The system determines how far a law firm can go. Since the reform of the law firm partnership in 1993, various models such as the corporate system, the point system, and the commission system have been born in the more than
30years.
Once a law firm has a system, it can move forward.
The second is people. The people who implement the system are also very important. Some lawyers leave the previous law firm to go it alone, even if they copy the previous system model, they will do things differently. Different people implement the same system, and the results may be different.
The third is the brand. Just like shopping, whether you choose to go to a street stall or a big mall depends on the customer's recognition of the brand. Some people think that the traditional partnership law firm is like setting up a stall, where the cost is low, the customer flow is high, and the business is good, you go wherever you go. Now the brand offices and scale are like shopping malls, and different lawyers are equivalent to franchise stores in the mall, selling different specialties.
The fourth is scale. When a law firm reaches a certain scale and covers a certain market, it will form its own ecosystem.
The fifth is characteristics. Different law firms have different characteristics. What a law firm specializes in is also crucial.
The sixth is the location of the law firm. It depends on which city and district the law firm is located in. There was once a law firm in Shenzhen that moved from a landmark building to a factory building in a very remote industrial area. If it wants to develop on a large scale, I don't think it will succeed. Because a large-scale law firm mainly serves the market and the economy. After being far away from the economic center, clients will not come, and neither will lawyers.
Therefore, in major cities in China, almost all law firms are concentrated in the CBD, which is determined by the characteristics of the industry.
Big Fish: I heard that a good law firm should have "natural time", "geographical location", "people". The so-called "geographical location" means that the market and customers determine where the law firm is opened, and even determine how big the law firm can be; the so-called "people" refers to the law firm's system, culture, lawyer quality, etc.; the so-called "natural time", I think it is also related to the opportunities of the times. For example, lawyers or law firms in Shenzhen have great ideas, which is related to Shenzhen's introduction of a series of policies to support the development of law firms and lawyers.
So, specifically, how did Zhiheng develop rapidly in just one or two years?
Lan Caiming: I have summarized several core reasons for the development of Zhiheng:
First, really run the law firm as a company.
At the beginning of the partnership reform, it stimulated the enthusiasm of lawyers to start a business and solved the liquidity problem of lawyers at the same time, but the rules of cost sharing and joint decision-making made the industry reach a consensus: we can only earn the money of clients, not the money of lawyers. This led to the increase in lawyers' income, but the lack of public accumulation of law firms made it difficult to grow and grow.
In order to solve this problem, many law firms in Beijing have created many new models, achieved scale expansion and established brands.
is a corporatized law firm. Many so-called corporatized law firms actually "corporatize" lawyers' income, apportion revenue-generating indicators to partners, manage and distribute lawyers' income uniformly, and keep a part of the law firm for daily operations. However, at the management level of the law firm, it is still a partnership, and the big and small matters must be voted on by the partners, and there are many troubles after development.
The corporatization of
is to truly operate the law firm as a company. The core is reflected in three aspects:
First, in terms of investment, all the investment of the law firm is completed by the main participating partners, and everyone does not need to share the cost. At the same time, the law firm develops according to a unified goal and planning layout, and all branches across the country are directly invested.
Second, the corporate equity system is introduced into law firms, and the senior equity partner holds the equity of the law firm. The equity is released from investors to lawyers, and the equity is valued every year.
Third, and most importantly, it adopts a corporatized professional manager operation and management system to cultivate a group of professional managers with a legal education background or even a lawyer's license as managing partners, only managing, not handling cases.
This system has two major advantages: on the one hand, it frees up the partners who both handle cases and manage them under the traditional partnership system, allowing professional managers to manage the law firm full-time, and professional lawyers to handle cases professionally. Under the traditional partnership system, the income of the partners depends on their own case handling, and at the same time, they have to take into account the management of the law firm. When the partners' own case conflicts with the management affairs such as meetings and document approval, they cannot be taken into account, and the management affairs will naturally be delayed. In the long run, the lawyer will think that the partner management is not in place, and the partners are also very hard.
On the other hand, avoid the conflicts of interest between lawyers caused by the traditional partner "acting as both a referee and a goalkeeper". Partners decide the entire content of the law firm's personnel, finances, and case sources, so lawyers want to get closer to partners for the opportunity. Over time, it is easy to cause unnecessary conflicts between lawyers.
The goal of professional managers is to provide better services to all partners and lawyers, and to maintain a balance between the firm's internal interests, opportunities, and rights, so as to reduce conflicts among lawyers.
Secondly, the commission system is retained in terms of lawyers' income.
has retained the commission system in the traditional partnership system in terms of lawyer income, which fully reflects the more work and more money, is relatively fair, and retains the passion of lawyers to start a business, avoiding the drawbacks of "eating a big pot of rice".
Overall,
has truly managed the law firm as a company, providing better services through improved management, attracting more lawyers, expanding better markets, promoting the profitability of the law firm, and then building a better platform for lawyers, thus sustaining development and forming a virtuous circle.
Young lawyers should choose a platform conducive to their own growth
Big Fish: Therefore,
has a very strong team of professional managers, who specialize in managing the law firm and promoting the development of the law firm. This has avoided many problems in traditional partnership law firms, such as partners' lack of energy for management or conflicts of interest, which has enabled
to achieve rapid development.
So what are the advantages or opportunities that a platform like Zhiheng can provide for young lawyers?
Lan Caiming: The topic of our conversation today is "The choice of lawyer career platform". In terms of development, it is about what kind of law firm lawyers should choose at different times, which is more conducive to their growth and development.
According to the growth stage of lawyers, lawyers first have an internship period; after obtaining a practice license, they enter the growth stage; after becoming a host lawyer or partner, they enter the mature stage; when they develop to a certain extent, they will encounter a bottleneck period; finally, for lawyers like me, I call myself the "old useful period".
I think the main focus of young lawyers is growth. Platforms that can make professional knowledge grow rapidly must be very attractive to young people. For example, various large-scale law firms manage their business vertically. The firm has a mature system from professional research and development, popularization to training. As long as young people are willing to learn after entering the law firm, they will definitely grow rapidly.
At the same time, the growth of lawyers includes professional knowledge, general capabilities, and expansion of horizons. The so-called "stand tall and see far", the big firms in major cities think about the future trend of the entire industry, how law firms plan, and how lawyers are trained. Longer-term issues such as how to train lawyers; while small firms may have no one to teach, no one to control, and even the managers themselves lack professionalism. They mainly think about where our clients are today, how to complete this year's tasks, and how to ensure no losses.
Therefore, I believe that small firms are of limited help to young lawyers, and the perspective and height from which they view the industry are also limited.
Therefore, in a law firm like Zhiheng, young people can gain professional growth, expand their horizons, and cultivate general capabilities to achieve rapid growth.
Big Fish: To sum up, a dynamic law firm like
, which is on the rise, and has professional managers who continue to promote development, can provide a platform for young lawyers with a higher perspective, as well as more resource networks and cooperation opportunities. There is a large learning space, and young lawyers are more likely to grow rapidly.
In such a state of development, why can
achieve it, but it is difficult for traditional partnership law firms to achieve it?
Lan Caiming: As early as a few years ago, the directors and partners of some local established law firms felt the pressure from Beijing and Shanghai scale firms and brand firms, hoping to join forces to make the law firm bigger, but the final idea failed to materialize.
The traditional partnership law firm cannot develop, and the biggest problem lies in the contradiction between the system and human nature.
Under the traditional partnership system, due to the law firm's cost-sharing, the partners consider the investment and their own interests more than its development role in the law firm, which makes it difficult for the partners to form a unified decision-making opinion and promote the development of the law firm. For example, if a director of intellectual property business wants to join the intellectual property association, he has to pay a membership fee of 20,000 yuan a year. The partner of criminal business believes that this investment is not helpful to his business and should be borne by the director of intellectual property business. The director of intellectual property business believes that this investment is for the development of the law firm, and the two have contradictions and cannot make decisions.
Under the corporatization model of
, the people, finances and assets of the law firm are arranged in accordance with the law firm's development plan and operating needs, without the need for partners to share costs, without considering the relationship between investment and a partner, only considering whether it can help promote the development of the law firm and improve the practice environment of lawyers, whether it can bring incremental benefits to market expansion and law firm profits, and avoid the problem of disagreement between partners.
For a group of people to be able to walk together, one needs a leader, and the other is a group of like-minded people. Many law firms want to go big, but when it comes to making decisions on key issues, because they can't overcome the shortcomings of traditional system decision-making methods and decision-making procedures, no one can promote the formation of a unified opinion, and they can only give up in the end.
Therefore, many lawyers with ideas in established law firms either go out to open their own law firms or join other brand firms to become backbone lawyers.
Big Fish: On the one hand, "people and people" are the foundation of law firms; on the other hand, the reform of Chinese law firms has only been more than 40 years, and it is still in the stage of insufficient institutional development. The development of the organizational form of law firms is not perfect, but simple "people and people" are difficult to adapt to the future development direction of the industry. Law firms need to carry out organizational reform, special personnel management, system operation, and formulate long-term goals and plans.
Next, what other plans does
have in attracting and training lawyers and in building a law firm?
Lan Caiming: Under the system of Zhiheng, the planning and development of the law firm, the partners only make suggestions, and the professional manager team mainly runs and plans.
's next goal is very clear, that is, to go from Shenzhen to the whole country and build a leading brand of Shenzhen law industry in the country. Although Shenzhen is a first-tier city, there are still very few Shenzhen law firms that have gone national.
Our strategic goals for this year are mainly twofold: first, to open more than 20 branches, 15 have been opened so far, and
10are in preparation; second,
has grown from 9 lawyers in 2021 to more than 700 lawyers at present, plus a management team of nearly 1,000 people. Zhiheng's plan this year is to reach the scale of 1200 to 1500 people, and by 2026, the overall size of the law firm will enter the top
10in the country.
Big Fish: According to the statistics of the new rules, the half-year scale of most law firms has increased by 8% to 10%, and some law firms have increased by 15% to 20%. As soon as
completed its transformation and adjustment in 2021, it has risen at a rate of three or five times, far exceeding the average growth rate. I think this speed of development can also bring confidence to the lawyers within the law firm.
The development of a law firm is to build momentum, coupled with sufficient management support, so that lawyers have confidence, opportunities, resources, and platforms, and promote the linkage of lawyers, which will generate good benefits.
Lan Caiming: Therefore,
already has a system and genes, and on this basis, it is necessary to gather a group of old, middle-aged and young lawyers who have the same dream and are willing to move forward together. Although Zhiheng is still in the early stage of laying out the country, everything is difficult at the beginning, but I believe that as long as everyone agrees with the concept and system of the law firm, the development momentum can be expected.
Big Fish:
and most local head offices have different development layouts with large headquarters and small branches. Each local branch hopes to grow to a certain scale. Except for law firms in Beijing and Shanghai, local law firms rarely follow this layout path. This is likely to help more law firm directors break the stereotype: as long as there are corresponding ideas, systems and personnel, local firms also have the opportunity to expand across the country.
04 Adapt to the changing times and combine personal planning with industry trends
Big Fish: What do you think are the main trends in the future of the legal industry?
Lan Caiming: Regarding this issue, I think there are two points:
First, the large-scale development of law firms is still the future trend. The country is still developing the lawyer industry on a large scale, and small firms cannot accommodate tens of thousands of new lawyers every year. Most lawyers will enter large-scale firms and brand firms.
Second, legal services need to be fully connected to customer needs. The current development of the lawyer industry does have problems such as declining customer payment ability and vicious competition in the industry, but I think the root cause of the problem is that the needs of the domestic legal service industry have not been fully tapped, nor have they been fully connected with law firms and lawyers.
On the one hand, this is related to the environment of China's "human society", which does not lead the way to solve problems to legal services;
On the other hand, lawyers are a professional group that serves the market economy, society as a whole, and individuals. There is a lack of lawyer resources among the grassroots who really need legal services, which is why many people now choose lawyers live through the Internet.
Therefore, the development of the lawyer business depends on how to connect with the society, how to innovate the business, and increase the demand for lawyer services from customers. The only way for the industry to expand the market is for legal services to penetrate into the groups with real needs.
With the development of society, new business forms will surely emerge, and new legal services will be born. For example, the current aging of China's population has given rise to the demand for legal services for the elderly; the problem of "triangle debt" has emerged, and lawyers can participate in rights protection lawsuits, debt collection enforcement, and so on.
Big Fish: Just as Director Lan said, the future trend of the legal industry, for law firms, the country expands the size of the lawyer group, and the large-scale development of law firms is an inevitable trend. The corresponding corporate management and branding development of law firms will continue to maintain vitality. For lawyers, in the face of the current background, they need to adapt to the changes of the times, explore customer needs, provide more unique legal services, and explore new markets.
So, how can a young lawyer combine personal career planning with industry trends to achieve better development?
Lan Caiming: First of all, every lawyer must first ask his heart: what kind of lawyer do you want to be? Are you ready to do litigation or non-litigation? Mainly specializing in civil and commercial affairs or criminal affairs? Are you going to be a professional lawyer or a management lawyer? Only by knowing your inner thoughts can you decide what to do next.
I would like to share a few ideas with young people:
First, "people move, trees move to death". When a lawyer has practiced in a law firm for a certain number of years, he will definitely encounter a bottleneck. It may be in professional growth, business income generation, or job promotion. At this time, it is necessary to consider "moving".
Second, "quantification and increment". The clients accumulated in the original law firm that can be taken away by lawyers are the original quantification; when you change to a new institution, new market coverage, new clients, colleagues, relationships and resources are called increments. If the quantification remains unchanged, if there is an increase, it will be beneficial to the development of lawyers.
For example,
can provide professional empowerment for young lawyers to expand the market, as long as they are willing to integrate into the law firm's system and culture, it is absolutely helpful for growth.
Third, find the right position. Lawyers who have developed to a mature stage need to find a position that suits them in the law firm. I often use the metaphor of "safflower and green leaf". For a law firm with a long history and mature development, it may not be too much for you to have one more law firm, and it is not too little for you to have one less. After you join, you can only be a "green leaf", not a "safflower".
For a post-hair law firm like Zhiheng, as long as they are talents, they will definitely be able to obtain the position of "safflower". If a partner joins Zhiheng, they can become a "veteran" of entrepreneurship, relying on their own expertise, cognition, and insights, and together with professional managers, they can lead the development of young lawyers.
For young lawyers, joining Zhiheng can also be more fully empowered and more opportunities.
Fourth, choose the right platform. No matter what stage of lawyers, they must eventually choose a law firm that suits them. Therefore, young people must have dreams, but also measure their own conditions and resources, and choose the platform that suits them. I do not encourage all young lawyers to go to large-scale or brand offices, but I think they should try to go to higher places.
Even if it fails and is not suitable, it is not impossible to return to the old place or small place.
Big Fish: Someone asked in the comment area of the live stream, can a young lawyer who has just graduated "have a full meal"? Director Lan's sharing has answered this question: As a lawyer, you must first have great ambitions, think clearly about your own development direction, and make the most suitable choice for you. If you are a "red flower" and join an upward platform, you can get the opportunity to bloom. Law firms and lawyers are mutually supportive, mutually beneficial and win-win relationships.